> Whether PC users, our core readership, will be interested in actually emulating Xbox One, looks unlikely. The 2013 system’s game library is largely overlapped in better quality on the PC platform.
And this explains why it's stayed unhacked so long. There was very little incentive to hack the system when the games are all playable on a PC. Pirates, cheaters, archivists, and hackers could just go there. Microsoft's best security measure was making something nobody cared enough about to hack in the first place
The other major incentive for hacking the console Microsoft removed was for the first time on a modern mainstream home console to allow side loading of homebrew code/emulators etc. The console supported a developer mode that allowed side loading of third party applications, so folks could get emulators and other traditionally "banned" content on the console through an officially supported route.
There's a great presentation by Tony Chen on the Xbox One's security features:
"side loading", I know this term is the one used but I think should be pushed back against with just using the standard "installing"/"install". It makes the control point clearer and (should be) unsettling when you can't "install" software on hardware you own.
It's a great point. As a geek I used to think those details don't matter, but it turns out language shapes society and how humans think way more than I understood.
We need to catch up on this because the people who know how to use language for propagandizing don't have the best intentions in mind.
But using the original term is not enough. We need to combat their word-twisting by upping them. We need a way to convey "their way of installing stuff by default is inferior and an attack on liberty".
Something like:
- direct install: installing as we always did
- caged install: installing through a locked store.
Maybe somebody better at marketing can find a good way to do this. In fact, we should have a whole site and community to organize together and shift the narrative on all nerdy things: formats, open web, DRM, patents, etc.
We have been weak on these points for so long because we care much more about solving tech problems than selling them. But openness is being eaten away under our noses. Has been for years.
I think sideloading is a fine term when it is a consumption device. No one buys a video game console expecting to be able to install anything they want. As a matter of fact, there is an argument that restricting what can be installed is a feature. By maintaining control of the hardware, they can eliminate entire classes of problems that someone might run into. That is to say, when you let your kid play on the switch, you don't want to have to troubleshoot how they got the thing borked from installing malware.
That said, I do think words matter and I always point out that the reason these systems are locked down is because of Digital Restrictions Management. I also refuse to buy anything from Sony because they changed their mind about letting me install linux on the PS3.
I just think side loading is good way to describe installing custom software on a non-general purpose computer, and that not every computer needs to be general purpose. It's significantly better than the previous terms of hacking, cheating, stealing, and voiding your warranty.
I tend to draw a distinction - side loading usually infers a supported but not mainstream way of installing applications - this xbox for example cannot side load without you paying a small fee to enable the developer mode, and the vast majority of software will be obtained via retail discs or the Xbox store. It's not a generic "install" mechanism native to the out of the box experience for the console - you have to do some extra work for this avenue to open.
When I think of "install" I think of general purpose OSes which can install software from almost any source no questions asked, or use the native out of the box support for software installations.
The similar distinction exists with android and iOS, and is probably why the term is popular in those communities too.
If nothing else, the term sideload makes very clear on platforms with native appstores or locked down distribution channels (consoles, phones...) that the install did not come from the native channels. Installs from game discs or the xbox store are inherently different from developer mode software and using the same term "install" for both disguises this fact.
Yeah I listened to a podcast with Corey Doctorow (inventor of the term "enshittification") and he made this point quite well, to the point where I have completely removed "side loading" from my vocabulary. It's installing software on the computer I own.
I'm very much of the opinion that PS3's linux support massively delayed its exploitation. And not just because it provided a path for homebrew/linux.
A lot of the early hacking focused on trying to breach the hypervisor from otheros. The hypervisor turned out to be quite secure, people smashed their heads against it for years until it finally fell to a memory glitching attack.
But turns out it was so much easier to just attack gameos with a USB exploit. The hypervisor did nothing to prevent it, and would then just decrypt games for you (because gameos was trusted)
The PS3 was incredible value dollar-to-flop, given that it was sold at a loss. This resulted in universities and other research institutes buying them en masse to create supercomputer clusters. Naturally buying thousands of consoles but not a single game puts sony in a difficult position. Although I think it's sad the hardware got locked down in later revisions, I fully understand why they did it.
The US Department of Defense went quite a bit further. They created the Condor Cluster in 2010 which was comprised of 1760 PS3s. At the time it was placed 33rd worldwide for a supercomputer.
at some point it was claimed that the reason sony removed the ability to run linux was because, literally, Saddam Hussein (maybe not) was using them to pilot jets or somesuch.
I haven't looked, but I am pretty sure that Saddam was dead before the ps3 launched. At the very least, his 2003/2004 ouster was before the ca 2007ish (I think) launch date.
Ok, I looked it up; Saddam Hussein was executed on December 30, 2006 and the ps3 launched on Nov 11, 2006 in Japan and Nov 17, 2006 in the US. So, technically, he was alive for the launch.
And in my mind the whole story was a publicity stunt, considering the political wind at the time and the place that broke the story; which was then quoted at me in college.
I said the word claimed. in the past. And it was more like: thousands of PS2 because sony/japan marked them dual use because they "were so powerful." So probably astro-turfed or even native advertising (considering the place that "broke" the story.)
I would be curious to know more precise numbers. My intuition suggests that when Sony sells millions of them, the number diverted for non-gaming purposes is maybe thousands or tens of thousands.
The marketing win of being able to say "these are so poweful, the military literally uses them in supercomputers" certainly more than makes up for a hundredth of a percent of consoles having a zero attach rate.
Linux on Playstation was the final hubris of Ken Kutaragi to have his insane CPU design take over computing. Kutaragi envisaged the PS3 becoming a standard hardware platform similar to the PC but fully controlled by Sony. That was their goal with the PS3, they said so themselves time and time again. The second Kutaragi was removed from power over at Playstation, they closed the Other OS function.
It was the last time that a Japanese company made a fundamentally Japanese move.
Sure, if we disregard that PS2 Linux came almost two years later, was only sold via Internet, added an extra 500 euros on top, although it got discounted into 300 euros at the end of PS2 lifetime.
That doesn't factor into it, because the tariffs, bans, etc they were trying to circumvent weren't dependent on the software shipping with the device in that case, nor the separate price of the software, nor were they even necessarily primarily targeting Europe.
Each of these schemes had different sets of regulatory checkboxes they were trying to tick, and so had very different end products.
I've seen this argument, but I strongly suspect that it's a cope argument. "We couldn't get in... because... we didn't care to! Even though we've hacked literally every other object on the planet just because."
The proof in the pudding of this will be when the Nintendo Switch 2 reaches 2035 with no cracks. That's my prophecy; that this time around the cat actually will catch the mouse. Between NVIDIA's heavily revised glitch-resistant RISC-V security architecture and Nintendo's impeccable microkernel, there's nowhere left to hide. DRM may turn out to have been a very slow long battle to "victory," not a "this will always be defeated."
I have my doubts. I suspect that Nvidia have made mistakes.
Anyway, situations like the one you describe are one to be solved by legislation requiring certain devices be sold as open devices that put power in the hands of the owner.
my nintendo switch is "rootable" by shorting two pins in the controller interface, with a previously set up SD card inserted with the homebrew bootloader.
My PS3 and PS4 were both jailbroken/rooted. I don't remember the ps3 routine, but the PS4 was loading the "system -> help" page while connected to a ESP32 wifi AP running a simple web server that replied to requests with the jailbreak for PS4.
I give it about a year, especially if nintendo has to change the specs or otherwise tampers with customer expectations. there's bound to be some way to reload firmware on a "dead" device without pulling chips, and that's all it takes.
The shorting two pins is a heavy oversimplification of what happened.
The two pins were installed by design from Nintendo to activate the Tegra RCM mode. RCM mode meanwhile has a USB buffer overflow which is the real bug.
In modern NVIDIA chips, this RCM mode no longer exists. The new recovery modes meanwhile are running across multiple physically separate CPUs verifying each other (glitch one, the other notices), all running formally verified firmware written in SPARK (the thing you use for nuclear reactors and avionics).
As for the OS itself, according to a maintainer who rewrote the kernel twice for open source, it has zero bugs. None. The microkernel is tiny, has no drivers, and almost no attack surface. This is born out by WebKit exploits being a dime a dozen on Switch, but all of them are useless.
> In modern NVIDIA chips, this RCM mode no longer exists. The new recovery modes meanwhile are running across multiple physically separate CPUs verifying each other (glitch one, the other notices), all running formally verified firmware written in SPARK (the thing you use for nuclear reactors and avionics).
I guess that, when you absolutely want zero surprises, Ada is the language of choice.
This is hyperbole. We have 1 switch that routinely "won't power on" without a ritual of button holding & timing. My original switch used to hard lock, but i stopped trying to play the sorts of games that were causing the OS to crash.
Both of these disprove the zero bugs claim, unless we move the goalposts.
That's obviously hardware failure, loose solder connections, or RAM failure, not bugs. For that matter, I was talking very specifically about kernel security bugs in context, not any bugs someone could experience.
That's like saying "I plugged in my phone's charging cable, and unplugged it, 20,000 times, and now it's sometimes showing the charging symbol inconsistently, obviously a software bug proving the charging circuit driver has a security flaw."
When you extrapolate out the political economy consequences of your hypothesis being correct the future looks very dark indeed. If you can make an unhackable game console it should be obvious to people on this site what sorts of dystopias you could also create.
unhackable brain-computer interface required for most daily activities (like phones are today) and with a killswitch "for the public safety" and 24/7 cloud monitoring. Obviously this is pretty out there science fiction today but will it remain so in a century? And if it doesn't, what kinds of political systems are likely to dominate? What will happen to those political systems that for one reason or another decline this capability? I leave these questions as an exercise for the reader.
Before we even get there, within 5-7 years new PCs will be Xbox-like, locked down devices. Only approved OS and apps may be installed, as it is a felony to run an OS that doesn't meet federal and state KYC ID requirements or even own a copy of one without a license, and no PC manufacturer wants the liability risk of being found complicit in the commission of such crimes. General purpose computing will be a thing of the past for the masses (who didn't really want it anyway). Server hardware will be exempt from these requirements, but to purchase it you need a D-U-N-S number and a statement of intended use in the purchase agreement.
Even if it were possible to find a vulnerability in the hardware, doing so without attracting the attention of law enforcement will be profoundly difficult, as Windows sends telemetry back to Microsoft about every instruction that runs on your hardware. Apple will claim to be more privacy-focused, at least for a year or two, but the M9 chip's NPU will just perform local inference on your activity and report you to Apple and the FBI if it detects attempts to break security.
Well, and these systems are also designed with ratchet-type measures in place from the get-go, where holes are plugged, fuses are burned, and newly released titles will only decrypt/run on the latest OS.
So even if Switch 2 doesn't make it all the way to 2035 with zero cracks, there's a strong likelihood that any exploits found will be short-lived.
Which incentivizes people to hold on to exploits for as long as possible, ideally past the console life cycle, just to make sure it can be used, which already is a thing
2035 for Switch 2 piracy to get started sounds nice, as someone invested in the platform.
Maybe we should think about this like the concept of public domain. Locked down for X years in order to protect the artist, then opened up for everyone to benefit society.
Now if only Sony would let us even have a smidgen of our own code on our Playstations. But nope, Sony would rather gatekeep that one to Hell and back.
Instead, they keep stripping stuff off the console. I'm still so annoyed that PS5 doesn't even have an integrated web browser anymore (especially trying to troubleshoot network issues from the console itself).
But hey, Sony can leave bullshit exploit vectors open like PPPoE clients on the console itself (why? just use a router?)...
There is this general vibe online that the newer generation xboxen are either bad, worse than playstation, or a straight up failure.
My series x, combined with gamepass, is by a very large margin the most at-home-entertainment bang I have gotten for my buck.
Before then I had what could be regarded as a "vintage" gaming PC: 1st gen i7 (nehalem?), a gts 450 and some amount of ram. An upgrade (read: full replacement) was desperately needed. This was in the middle of the crypto gpu boom, so a decent GPU alone would've wiped my budget. I settled for an xbox as it was cheaper than a ps5.
I've always seen myself as part of the pc master race, and thought consoles to be very limited. But man, it just worked, the games just worked, and gamepass made it all a total steal.
Even now, when our 3 month old baby is settled for the night, me and my wife's preferred entertainment is a session of bg3 over watching tv.
Doing the math i can't find this to be true. As some one that has honed my taste in games, and have a large steam library, I don't spend as much money on games as game pass cost.
With the recent price changes the calculus changes for sure. Even though I live in Europe now, my subscription is stil set up in South Africa. So I used to pay the equivalent of €10 per month for Ultimate, now it's €18/mo.
I think if I were forced to relocate my subscription and pay the full real price (€30/mo), I will probably cancel and buy a €90 game evey quarter or something.
I ended up cancelling gamepass after the subscription increase. I already own most of the games they offer, so it was really the odd AAA or indie release I'd play on it.
Indie games are cheap and most AAA titles go on sale within six months, which is fine because I usually don't play them day of launch.
Then there's the issue with gamepass games not working on my system. It's the only platform where I've had consistent issues getting games to run. Even free games like fortnite, were bundled with the wrong anticheat.
Thanks, we are definitely in the 'if it's this easy we should have another one!'. She's been a treat so far and from what I've heard from other parents, very easy.
This is true, but it is also true that the Xbox One's security architecture and mitigations were ahead of its time. It would've taken a while to hack even with stronger incentives to hack it.
>The 2013 system’s game library is largely overlapped in better quality on the PC platform.
I get what this essentially means, but for those of us with a certain amount of love of language (or pedantry), it's fascinating to try and parse this literally because I don't quite think it works as intended.
Clearly the intended meaning is something like eclipsed in quality. And it may be overlapped in the sense that the same games are separately available on PC. But overlap isn't a relation of quality; quality is generally better or worse when it's comparative. So it's like a smushed together way simultaneously saying the selection of games on Xbone overlaps with what's available on PC and is also better quality on PC.
Yes, but the grandparent poster and I would agree that the parse is not that ambiguous/the meaning is easily inferred. The sentence states that the library is overlapped _and_ that overlap is available in better quality: it may seem contrived, but it reads as a rather natural collapse of an implicit conjunction to me.
One thing PC does not have are the Xbox/Xbox 360 updated games. Microsoft did a great job of making the old games playable on Xbox One with better resolution, performance, etc. It would be nice to play the exclusive games of those consoles on PC through this.
They're not going to bring over Xbox 360 emulation. This thing is dependent on the specific CPU and GPU of the Xbox One and Series consoles. They've lost their appetite for emulation and have reassigned the whole team dedicated to it.
Yeah, you couldn't be more wrong here. The exact same people who thoroughly destroyed the 360 badly wanted to attack this system - they were just outgunned.
I know that's been dropping my level of interest for hacking consoles farther and farther. Why hack a console when it has almost no exclusives, even fewer of which I personally care about, and having a real computer hooked to a TV is no longer weird or difficult? I could fight to put an emulator on some locked down console or I can just install an emulator for almost everything ever made in like 10 minutes on my Steam Deck, so the choice is pretty obvious.
Most of what was done on an original modded Xbox can be done on a retail stock Xbox One/Xbox Series with the exception of pirated Xbox games. Kodi (formerly known as XBMC) is just in the Xbox store, emulators and homebrew can be setup through dev mode with a little effort and $20. It's really just pirated versions of Halo 5 and a few others missing.
Pretty much, if you provide what people want elsewhere you will reduce the demand to crack the original system.
One of the reasons the Wii U was slow to be hacked was because Android TV boxes had come along plus things like Ouya/Nvidia shield, and it basically took away a lot of demand for a console turned into TV unit to use hacked software.
It still happened but not so quiclkly. Not like the original Wii which didnt really have much similar to it at the time.
Also getting a dev account and loading up RetroArch/emulators in general is trivial. Best use of an Xbox one for sure. Well documented and exploited at this point.
Not the same as emulating its titles, but a lot of interest in the Xbone/series line (outside of actual console users) is the dev accounts. So I imagine a lot more effort went there first.
I was vaguely aware this is possible although the "sign-up for a dev account and boot it in dev mode all the time", even if free, was still enough of a barrier that I haven't done yet. I'm hoping this hack eventually leads to a simpler "one-click" way to run emulation, home brew and mods while still maintaining full original game and media playing functionality.
Then I'll finally hook up the XBOne I have again and put it to some use on the downstairs TV. I already have a 'retired' PS4 filling similar role on the upstairs TV (although it must stay offline to remain 'liberated').
How is this the first I’m hearing of it? Looks like I finally have a reason to own an x-box, aside from the best version of Perfect Dark (the HD release of the original with modern controls, I mean) being on the 360.
Perfect Dark works on newer Xboxes too. For Xbox One X and Series X it runs at 9x the res of the 360 version. It's included in Rare Replay which also includes Goldeneye 007 if you get it digitally.
They used to charge too but now it’s free. I got mine set up after about 30min of work a few weeks ago just need to actually load it up now. It’s tedious and you have to share your personal ID but it’s not difficult.
The Xbox One has been emulated though (well not emulated, it's a compatibility layer like Wine). Before this hack, there was Collateral Damage. We were able to dump games with the exploit.
Minecraft: Xbox One Edition (the Legacy version) was of keen interest to our community as it would be playing LCE natively on a PC if you used a compatibility layer which never happened before.
So a few of my LCE cult friends contributed to WinDurango which was pretty much dead before they joined, and got Minecraft: Xbox One Edition to work.
Of course, you'd ask "why don't you just play Minecraft on PC normally?" Legacy Console Edition has so many minute differences and details that it's impossible to discuss all of them--things as big as the Minigames and as small as the mipmaps.
And then LCE source code from 2014 got leaked and that had a native PC port. Oh well.
> The Xbox One has been emulated though (well not emulated, it's a compatibility layer like Wine).
The parenthetical is not needed. It is OK to call Wine an emulator. The "Wine Is Not an Emulator" thing came about later and was essentially a marketing change. How it came about is interesting.
The first suggestion to change the meaning of the word from a shortening of "windows emulator to the not an emulator backronym was in 1993 over concern that "windows emulator" might run into problems with Microsoft trademarks, but no action was taken.
Over time the not an emulator usage became an accepted alternative. The Wine FAQ in late 1997 for example said:
The word Wine stands for one of two things: WINdows
Emulator, or Wine Is Not an Emulator. Both are right.
Use whichever one you like best.
The release notes stopped calling it an emulator at the end of 1998. The 981108 release notes said:
This is release 981108 of Wine, the MS Windows emulator.
The 981211 release notes said:
This is release 981211 of Wine, a free implementation of
Windows on Unix.
As far as I have been able to tell from my recollections of that time and what I was able to find when I looked into it later is that this happened for two reasons.
1. Wine was useful for more than just running Windows binaries on Unix. It could also be used as a library you could link with code compiled on Unix as an aide to porting Windows programs to Unix.
2. Hardware emulators that emulator old systems like GameBoy or Apple II had become popular. Many people were only familiar with that kind of emulator, and those (the emulators, not the people!) tended to be slow.
That was fine when your emulator is running on a machine with a clock speed 300x that of the machine you are emulating and that has a much more efficient CPU, but when you tried to use a hardware emulator for something comparable to your machine it was usually unbearably slow.
People only familiar with such hardware emulators might see Wine described as a Windows emulator and think it was doing hardware emulation and not even give it a try. By dropping calling it an emulator Wine sidestepped that problem.
No it doesn’t explain it. This is legitimately a difficult target. Did you watch the talk?
The people that MS hired to make and break this were top notch, and there is definitely incentive to maintain control over a content platform. This dude has been at this for /years/. I’ve been a fly on the wall on all sides to observe this.
There has been a lot of interest in underground / pirate communities to hack this, but that’s not the only reason why people hack things.
And this explains why it's stayed unhacked so long. There was very little incentive to hack the system when the games are all playable on a PC. Pirates, cheaters, archivists, and hackers could just go there. Microsoft's best security measure was making something nobody cared enough about to hack in the first place