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I don't personally have a problem with software patents in principle. You've come up with a brilliant idea, you spent time and money to implement it, and you want to make sure you receive the credit for it. I get that.

I was born well after VisiCalc was released. I look back on those years, and wish I could have experienced how "open" things were. It seems like the culture was completely different when it came to new ideas for the most part. Also when it came to sharing ideas. Things were different.

In recent years I've become less and less of a fan of software patents. Only because they are being used to hinder development of new services because they may somehow relate to a very generic idea that someone had. If you're going to get a patent, and will not abuse it...go for it!

Stupid, no. Just happened in a completely different universe...



> You've come up with a brilliant idea, you spent time and money to implement it, and you want to make sure you receive the credit for it.

The problems is that 9 out of 10 times, that idea is derivative of some other idea(s). And you just have to hope that the original idea(s) either aren't patented or have since expired.


Or you can cross-license your improvement in exchange for the prior art.


Assuming the owner of the prior art is open to this, which may or may not be true.


I don't personally have a problem with software patents in principle. You've come up with a brilliant idea, you spent time and money to implement it, and you want to make sure you receive the credit for it

If only there were a different form of intellectual property, one that grants a limited monopoly over the embodiment of a creative work rather than legal ownership of the idea behind it. Oh, wait. There is. It's called "copyright." And it's (more than) strong enough for the job.


Right, and somebody simply reverse engineers your creative work and re-implements it, completely bypassing any protection provided by IP. As long as you make something that cannot be hidden away in the cloud or protected as trade secrets, your work is always vulnerable to reverse engineering, and it's surprisingly cheap to get it done. Forget software, even fabricated chips get reverse engineered on a regular basis.


And good luck enforcing your patents in the countries where this is actually going to be a problem.


Oh, don't think this is a problem that is localized to some countries -- it happens all over the world. The actual work itself may be outsourced to some countries (some Eastern Bloc countries spring to mind; I met a couple of guys from Czechoslovakia who specialized in reversing wireless firmware in GPS devices) but the firms who contract this work and use the results operate in the US and Europe as well.


"You've come up with a brilliant idea, you spent time and money to implement it, and you want to make sure you receive the credit for it."

Hint: the marketplace is the way to get that credit.


The marketplace sometimes rewards thieves more than creators, which is the historical reason for laws that regulate intellectual property rights. You may disagree with current laws (I personally think the current term of copyright protection is much too long), but I have lived somewhere where enforcement of intellectual property rights was weak at one time, and that was not good for innovation there.

AFTER EDIT: Both of the first two kind replies to my comment ask for some more details about what I observed overseas. Early 1980s Taiwan was the land of "Rolex" watches sold on street corners, pirated United States bestsellers in English-language bookstores for tourists, and general violation of patent, copyright, and trademark rights. Every country in the world seems to go through a stage of copying rather than innovating in its economic development. Eventually, as Taiwan democratized, it became apparent that international trade relations would OF COURSE be helped by meeting treaty obligations to protect intellectual property from other countries. Moreover, it was discovered that there are plenty of creative, inventive people in Taiwan, who created more and invented more as gradually domestic individuals and companies received greater legal protection of intellectual property rights. Innovation is hard to sustain where copying is the path to quick riches. But innovation becomes a more reasonable path for investment of personal time and effort if being first to make something new allows some LIMITED time (I'm with everyone here in desiring intellectual property rights not to extend too long in time) to enter the market and see what consumers think of the innovation.


> I have lived somewhere where enforcement of intellectual property rights was weak at one time, and that was not good for innovation there.

Can you speak on this? Do you feel patent right were weak, or all of intellectual property rights?


So, specifically in software, if it is simple for "thieves" to "steal" the work, it probably wasn't worthy of protection in the first place.

I will admit, you can be a great engineer and a terrible businessman, and thus fumble a first-mover advantage, but I don't think patents are the solution to that.

Would you mind elaborating on your experience?


You don't have to be "a terrible businessman" if you're, say, some guy in a basement and the "thief" is a large company with the ability to copy quickly (even if badly) and deep marketing and production pockets. By the time you're able to broadcast your innovation beyond your neighborhood, you're already competing against the proverbial "major national brand" of the product you invented, as seen on TV and available in a store near you.


The marketplace rewards all sorts of things that are not related to the brilliance of the idea. Access to capital, management expertise, skill of execution, plain dumb luck, etc.

Therefore, the marketplace encourages companies to take a fast-follower approach. Let someone else spend the money to come up with the idea, and then pounce all over it.

The goal of the patent system is to encourage the idea itself, by giving a monopoly to the inventor. In this way, fast-followers have to compensate the inventor for the invention by licensing the patent.

Alternatives to patents -- prizes, research grants, compulsory licensing, etc. -- are also designed to separate the value of the idea itself from the rough-and-tumble of the marketplace.


> I was born well after VisiCalc was released. I look back on those years, and wish I could have experienced how "open" things were.

You might have missed the "look and feel" reference in the post. Lotus (makers of another spreadsheet, "1 2 3") sued other companies over the look and feel of software that was "too similar" to 1 2 3. Two companies went out of business.

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotus_Software#.22Look_and_fee...)


> I don't personally have a problem with software patents in principle. You've come up with a brilliant idea, you spent time and money to implement it, and you want to make sure you receive the credit for it. I get that.

That's certainly one principle. But literally implemented "principles" are often toxic when it comes to public policy. I largely think that's due to a failure to think through the effects on the entire system. The principle is emotionally appealing, but ends up having undesired or even disastrous primary- and/or side- effects in the real world.

In the patent case, we have a Mexican Standoff[1] in that virtually every player is vulnerable (violates one or more patents knowingly or unknowingly) and the only defense is stockpiling more armaments (patents) and shooters (legal staff). The risks and barriers to entry to small players are high. And that doesn't account for the actions of parasitic agencies like patent trolls.

That said, things are largely more open now in practice. The level of interchange of ideas and code is far, far greater now than ever before. That culture didn't die or go away -- it exploded right along with the rest of computing.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_standoff


> You've come up with a brilliant idea, you spent time and money to implement it, and you want to make sure you receive the credit for it. I get that.

You're thinking at the individual scope. When making a policy, a given individual doesn't weight much. Even all inventors put together don't have much moral weight, compared to the rest of the population.

So, patents rewards inventors. That's an advantage. But it's a little advantage, for there are not that many inventors to begin with. There are also the costs associated with the implementation of patents (patent bureau, patent lawyers…), which may be significant, but not much in my opinion. So, on first approximation, we can ignore those aspects, because there are bigger effects, that affect society as a whole.

On the disadvantage side, patents restricts what people can do, and they kill competition. (Of course. They were designed that way. But it's still a disadvantage.)

On the advantage side, patents are an incentive for inventors to invent, and for companies to fund them. The inventions then benefit everyone (starting with rich people, but still).

Now, all we have do do is measure which weight the most. See how patents actually affect society, and decide if it's a net benefit, or a net loss. Either way, try and think about policies which may have more advantages, or fewer drawbacks —or both. Patents are far from the only way of encouraging innovation, after all.

You can see that it's much more complex than the "reward the inventor" principle. Principles are good, but they're often not enough. When you look at actual consequences, you see that sticking to easy to understand principles is not always the best thing to do. Especially when deciding for an entire country.


I agree with you about patents, but overall, I don't things are worse or less open now. Visicalc wasn't patented, but it was a commercial, $99, closed source product. The open source movement is much bigger and stronger now. Linux and Github would have been mind blowingly awesome in 1979. They are mind blowingly awesome now!


Github isn't open source (nor free software)


I'm not talking about Github the app/code, but the contents of Github.


If you have the best implementation of that idea, won't you get credit for it anyway? Patents, like everything else designed to inhibit innovation and the flow of ideas, are bad for society.




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